tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14041973.post112206724856755997..comments2023-12-23T05:26:40.855-06:00Comments on Showers of Blessings: What God has joined together . . .Paul Lhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03483071863453025925noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14041973.post-1122307884168940082005-07-25T11:11:00.000-05:002005-07-25T11:11:00.000-05:00Hi Paul,Great post. When Julie and I applied for c...Hi Paul,<BR/>Great post. When Julie and I applied for clearness to marriage we took it quite seriously and challenged the committee to take it quite seriously (I think they were more nervous about the questions we'd ask them than vice versa!)<BR/><BR/>You wrote: <I>A lot of people have complained that our meetings don't spend nearly the energy in supporting the marriages under their care as they do the weddings.</I> <BR/><BR/>This is so very true and it was one of the things we challenged our committee on. We wanted to have follow-up oversight meetings. We did have one at about the one-year mark but that will surely be it (Julie has since left Friends and couldn't even get "our" Meeting to schedule a clearness meeting around that decision).<BR/><BR/>I don't know of any meetings that seriously consider holding the ongoing marriage under their care. The marriages are generally treated as private affairs and sadly only come under the Meeting's attention again when divorce is imminent (and by that point) usually unavoidable.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure just what an ongoing process would look like. I'm not sure it <I>should</I> be just another modern liberal Quaker process. Perhaps the whole context would have to be different: we'd have to be in a seriously inter-related covenanted community where we would have the trust and expectations that our community does have responsiblity for that which the world calls private. Maybe it wouldn't work--maybe I'm too much of an idealist!<BR/><BR/>Thanks again, I'm enjoying your blog.<BR/>Your friend,<BR/>MartinMartin Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06999620933648327663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14041973.post-1122162061010001532005-07-23T18:41:00.000-05:002005-07-23T18:41:00.000-05:00I think I was being a little self-deprecating. I d...I think I was being a little self-deprecating. I don't really disagree with what I wrote. I meant that I could have refined ti to have been more clear, and brief. <BR/><BR/>And of course, if traditional forms don't hold meaning or power one musn't use them. I think I was just lamenting that so many people these days seem to me to be abandoning old forms rather than finding the meaning in them. <BR/><BR/>But that may be an ideosyncracy of my late early middle-age: More and more I'm understanding the wisdom of the proverb "There's nothing new under the sun" and appreciating that almost every thing that seems new has been done or said before. And not necessarily as well. <BR/><BR/>Yet even the old forms were new once and trampled on someone else's treasured tradition. So there you are. <BR/><BR/>(Reminds me of a favorite William Hamilton cartoon in <I>The New Yorker</I> showing a couple in an antique shop with the woman saying, "Do you realize this is the second time people got tired of Art Deco?")Paul Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03483071863453025925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14041973.post-1122081899752087052005-07-22T20:24:00.000-05:002005-07-22T20:24:00.000-05:00Two comments, Friend Paul.First, regarding this st...Two comments, Friend Paul.<BR/><BR/>First, regarding this statement (and maybe it is one with which you find yourself already disagreeing, based on your closing words!):<BR/><BR/><I>Nowadays, some try to put meat on the bones of what being “loving and faithful marriage partners” means by addressing it in their public vows – to support each other, to be honest and forthright, ...etc. I don’t understand why they feel the need to do this in their vows...</I><BR/><BR/>I would say that Jeanne and I have the affirmations that we do because they hold power for us, given how our relationship, with Divine assistance, had transformed us prior to [and since!] our wedding. Had I used the traditional statement that you lift up here, it would have been an empty form for me, a form without life or power—<B><I>for me.</I></B><BR/><BR/>And I don't worry about remembering what other couples have said to each other at their weddings. I will simply ask them, if I am supporting them during troubled times: <I>What commitments did you make to each other during your wedding?</I><BR/><BR/>The other thing I wish to comment on is your choice to post something with which you already found yourself disagreeing! <BR/><BR/>My guess is you've thought through this dilemma—to post or not to post—so I don't expect a reply. Just keep on walkin' forward and all shall be well.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>Liz, <A HREF="http://thegoodraisedup.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">The Good Raised Up</A>Liz Opphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09802348848085930901noreply@blogger.com